The present study aims to demonstrate the basic facts of Katyn massacre — the execution of almost 22, people: Polish prisoners of war in Katyn, Kharkov, Kalinin Tver and also other Polish prisoners soldiers and civilians , which took place in the spring of in different places of the Soviet Ukraine and Belarus republics based on the decision of the Soviet authorities, that is the Political Bureau of All-Union Communist Party Bolsheviks of March 5, This article refers not only to the massacre itself, but also its origin, historical processes and the lies accompanying Katyn massacre. The commonly used expression referring to the simultaneous murders at many locations includes only the name of one of them, where the bodies of the officers were buried. This is connected with the fact that, for almost half the century after these tragic events, the knowledge about people taken into captivity, or arrested and finally murdered based on the resolution of the Political Bureau of All-Union Communist Party Bolsheviks , was limited to the information of the executions in Katyn 1.
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That bit at the end doesn't strike me as very NPOV Tualha , 9 Feb UTC. It is not clear as to why Roosevelt would want to cover up the Soviet massacres. At first glance at the heading I thought the Communists and the American President had something in common.
It's clear why one murderous leadership would want to put massacres they committed themselves into the shoes of a competing murderous regime. But, Roosevelt??? Whyerd , 10 Sep UTC. The following was posted by User:Rogper in Katyn article. I believe it should be incorporated into this articla rather than geography-related Katyn. How to do this? Yes, maybe you have right; it suits perhaps better here. Some of the following could be incorporated in the main article if it can be checked which came from a book read long ago :.
The Germans took a number of experts from the countries they occupied to investigage the Katyn site. The Czech expert was later to do the post mortuum on Jan Masaryk. What is the purpose of including the link to neo-Nazi writer Irving's book? He was controversial from the start, including his Sikorski-murder thesis. I'd suggest reading Prof. Richard Evans' report, in which some of Irving's early distortions are discussed.
This man should not be counted upon the present an objective historical narrative. Also, what is the source of "On Christmas Eve of , all clergy, including Roman and Greek Catholic, Orthodox, Jewish, and Protestant, were removed from the camps and probably murdered separately. This should be deleted if no source is forthcoming. He wasn't hanged. So again the basic, verifiable fact is wrong. And he should have known that Soprunenko didn't sign the order. Together with the prisons this gives us about 22, victims.
Some Soviet documents present a higher estimate for the camps - 15, Although it is explicitly stated that all the people were from the three camps, it is not completely clear.
It is possible that some Poles from other camps or prisons were killed together with the Poles from the three camps.
I think the wording of the possible death toll in the first paragraph: "from 1, to 14, through 21, to 28, But the way it is now, if I understand it correctly, is reporting a "range of ranges" Not clear enough for my standards of usability.
Drewson99 , 16 November UTC. I think in to artikel it better postert the official number as sombodyelse User:Nikkolai. I have to take a break from verification now. Can somebody provide a source for the 22, number? All sources I have found so far note I wasn't looking for those numbers on purpose give about , Zawodny, Mosnews. But what source gives that ' prisoners in Western parts of Belarus and Ukraine'? I think that the best solution is to have an entire separate para or section dealing with numbers, explaining various estimates from all the sources.
Could one of you write it? I fail to see why David Irving elicits such suspicion in here, if one had dared to suggest the Germans had been wrongfully accused of the Katyn forest massacre pre they would be labeled a "historical revisionist" in North America, most likely imprisoned in Europe and probably far worse in the Soviet Union.
Makes you wonder just how many more dirty little secrets the Nazis took the blame for during the war. Expecially interesting consider Vladimeir Putin's statement about "clearing up certain historical problems" in reference to certain alleged mass graves in eastern Europe that has been one of the corner stones of the holocaust claims against Germany.
The whole ", bodies still on fire to this day burried in the pits" story. It almost sounds as silly as "the Germans are making soap and beauty products out of jewish body fat and lampshades from the skin of murdered jews. Nazrac tt , 22 June UTC. I think the story shuld beginn whith the okkupation of Czechoslovakia from Germany and Poland.
I have seen compelling arguments in favor of Nazi guilt but you'd never know that from this article, which treats the Soviet guilt POV as unchallenged fact.
Everyking , 22 August UTC. You see there are evidences that it was made by Nazi. Question: Is this massacre not simply standard Stalinist procedure? Stalin committed so many violent purges of his own people that, when Hitler's armies suddenly attacked Stalin in , there were scarcely any Russian generals left to resist him.
If the Nazi's had not been as bad as Stalin and would not have murdered "inferior" Slavic peasants and Jewish peoples during their attack, the captive peoples of Russia might have risen up against the Soviets and successfully overthrown Stalin instead. Why are you pro-Soviet apologists quibbling over the number of victims in the Katyn Forest Massacre? Stalin was a murdering, paranoid fanatic and a sociopath. It's a wonder there is anyone left in Russia alive. He didn't just have twenty thousand people from Poland executed.
Stalin murdered millions of people! He had over five million people starved to death in the Ukraine alone! When did the Soviet army ever overrun any territory and there was not a massacre of innocent civilians afterward? Did any country or people ever say to the Soviets, "Hey. We don't know how to run our country. Please come in and show us how to do it"? The very purpose of Soviet plans for world domination is to liquidate the intelligentsia those who know how to run things, like the victims murdered and dumped at Katyn after conquering the territory, in order to eliminate the very idea of any other system other than communism.
Maybe the Soviets should set up a program about world hunger: "How to have all your crops fail for seventy-five years in a row. After the Bolshevik Revolution, which was violent, the Soviets first massacred the people around Moscow who were related in any way to Czarist Russia.
Then the Soviets massacred the people in the nearer provinces whom they thought might resist. Then the Soviets eliminated the people in the outer provinces who didn't like what they were doing. It was systematic. It took the Soviets decades to consolidate their power in Russia while the West stood by. It is standard procedure for Communists to eliminate the enemies of their revolution.
Within this context of historical methodology no matter how violent or murderous it is , the Katyn Massacre should not really surprise anybody. It is what the Communists always do. The soviets, especially through Stalin, did murder millions of people indeed, of their own too. They also displaced large populations and re-colonized annexed territories to the point of identity loss for some smaller countries.
The tragedy and scale of all that is hard to grasp from the relative comfort of the west. The interesting point though is how, according to the reporting from this year's May 9th celebrations for instance, Stalin is still favorably viewed by many russians and even their official position on the matter seemed somewhat ambiguous. R sept.
I don't believe POV ranting has any place here. If you're not talking about how to improve this article then it doesn't belong. Everyking , 8 September UTC. This is a discussion page, isn't it? My comments are providing background information on Stalinist methodology: Stalin always did the same thing, for as long as he remained in power. He murdered masses of people everywhere, in everyplace that he was in control, to further Marxist-Leninist goals, and to gain power.
Is this not true? Does this not have a historical bearing upon the Katyn Forest Massacre? Is it not relevant to the discussion? OK, now it has been improved, although I don't expect it to stay that way for long.
I think it's a difficult question, and certainly not one I'm qualified to grapple with. But I can come up with a few thoughts about it. Clearly, in the West, Soviet guilt is pretty much unquestioned in mainstream history. When you come at it that way it looks like a question of the notability of the view, not the accuracy of the view—is the view of Nazi guilt notable enough to warrant this balanced treatment, and if so to what degree?
But on the other hand, what is the view in, say, Russia? How do the competing views compare in terms of notability there? I'm guessing —I don't know this—that the view of Nazi guilt is probably a good bit common there, perhaps mainstream and in practical competition with the view of Soviet guilt.
So I think it's a complex question that requires a lot of consideration. Everyking , 8 December UTC. I, too, have seen some compelling arguments aimed at blaming the Nazis for the Katyn massacre.
My history prof introduced the issue neutrally. Simply put, when the site of the massacre was discovered, the Nazis blamed the Soviets and the Soviets blamed the Nazis.
People today are too quick to jump to the conclusion that the Soviets are responsible for the killings just because the Nazis discovered the site.
Talk:Katyn massacre/Archive 1
The original Russian source of the news is Inessa Yashborovska. Anyone can check her article in an academic Russian journal. I have quoted a blog? Xx talk , 27 May UTC.